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	<title>Comments on: How does Tolerance fit with Equal Rights?</title>
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	<link>http://www.gayequalitycivilrightsmovement.com/2009/11/07/where-does-tolerance-fit-with-equal-rights/</link>
	<description>Linda Stay and Steve Stay - Standing Up, Speaking Out</description>
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		<title>By: Duwayne Anderson</title>
		<link>http://www.gayequalitycivilrightsmovement.com/2009/11/07/where-does-tolerance-fit-with-equal-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-18</link>
		<dc:creator>Duwayne Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 18:53:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gayequalitycivilrightsmovement.com/?p=121#comment-18</guid>
		<description>Okay, I have to admit this one really made me think.

Part of the problem is that &quot;tolerate&quot; is one of those weird words in the English language that has both positive and negative connotations.  The phrase &quot;I tolerate you&quot; might be read as &quot;I put up with you,&quot; and can be derogatory.  On the other hand, I freely admit that I want people to be tolerant of my personal idiosyncrasies.  

When I think of Civil Rights I think of rights we&#039;re all entitled to, and that nobody else is allowed to take away from us (even by voting).  Speech, for example, is supposed to be a Civil Right; I can say what I want and nobody has the right to put a muzzle on me.  I don&#039;t have the right for others to *agree* with what I say, but I certainly have the right to say it.

Religion is another Civil Right.  People have the right to believe what they want about god, gods, angels, fairies, or whatever.  I don&#039;t have to agree with them.  In fact, I don&#039;t (I&#039;m an atheist) but I agree that it&#039;s *important* for people to have freedom of thought, and that there is a far, far greater danger in the &quot;thought police,&quot; than in religious freedom.

In both cases I exercise tolerance of individual freedoms -- acceptance of an individual&#039;s rights even though their speech/religion might be (and often is) offensive/stupid.

Things get a bit murkier when it comes to color.  I have a good friend who is black.  I don&#039;t &quot;tolerate&quot; his skin color -- in fact it&#039;s not even an issue.  I certainly hope he doesn&#039;t &quot;tolerate&quot; me for being white.  I don&#039;t think anyone should say they &quot;tolerate&quot; his skin color either -- it&#039;s somehow wrong to say you tolerate someone on account of a physical condition they were born with, and have no control over.  

And that&#039;s the difference.  

Some civil rights (religion and speech, for example) involve choices we make.  Those choices need to be tolerated, but not necessarily respected as the &quot;right&quot; choice.  Other civil rights have to do with conditions over which we have no choice (race, ethnicity, gender, etc.) and those demand acceptance, not mere &quot;tolerance.&quot;

It&#039;s fairly clear (based on the science involved) that sexual orientation is one of those attributes that we&#039;re born with.  Unlike our religious affiliation, and the words we speak, our sexual orientation isn&#039;t a &quot;choice.&quot;  As such it seems pretty clear that sexual orientation, like race, is a civil right that demands more than simple &quot;tolerance.&quot;

I find it interesting that many of the most voracious opponents to Gay Civil Rights are religious people that claim &quot;homosexuality is a choice.&quot;  They seem to think that if it is a &quot;choice&quot; it can&#039;t be a protected civil right, and they do this while defending their own civil rights in the choices they make to join a religion (Mormon, Roman Catholic, etc.) and to speak out on a subject.  Clearly their reasoning is hypocritical; choices can be protected as part of our civil rights.  They demand protection for their choices, and should be willing to extend protection for choices they *perceive* others making.  

But, as I said, one&#039;s sexual orientation isn&#039;t a choice.  

So, bringing this full circle, I agree that we shouldn&#039;t &quot;tolerate&quot; a person for being black.  We shouldn&#039;t tolerate the fact that so-and-so is Italian, French, or Chineese.  And we shouldn&#039;t &quot;tolerate&quot; a person for being Gay anymore than we &quot;tolerate&quot; them for being 5&#039;9&quot;  

I tend to break it down this way:

1)  Choices we make -- I tolerate them but may disagree, or even argue aggressively that the choice is silly, stupid, or dangerous.
2)  How we are born -- non-judgmental acceptance/understanding and respect

So I conclude that my dear Mormon friends are whacked out of their silly little heads -- and have a Constitutional right to their delusions, while my friends of various colors, nationalities, and sexual orientations are just .... friends.

As for *children,* these any parent must love and cherish no matter what they do.  Any parent that would put their religion above their child (or grandchild, etc.) is exercising &quot;unnatural affection.&quot;  They are an affront to nature.  A parent that denigrates a child (or grandchild) for being gay is as strange a creature as a mother bear that tries to suckle a tree stump while her cub starves to death.

Anyway, that&#039;s my $0.02 and I&#039;m sticking to it (it&#039;s my constitutional right!!) until someone can prove (using a cogent argument) that I don&#039;t know what I&#039;m talking about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, I have to admit this one really made me think.</p>
<p>Part of the problem is that &#8220;tolerate&#8221; is one of those weird words in the English language that has both positive and negative connotations.  The phrase &#8220;I tolerate you&#8221; might be read as &#8220;I put up with you,&#8221; and can be derogatory.  On the other hand, I freely admit that I want people to be tolerant of my personal idiosyncrasies.  </p>
<p>When I think of Civil Rights I think of rights we&#8217;re all entitled to, and that nobody else is allowed to take away from us (even by voting).  Speech, for example, is supposed to be a Civil Right; I can say what I want and nobody has the right to put a muzzle on me.  I don&#8217;t have the right for others to *agree* with what I say, but I certainly have the right to say it.</p>
<p>Religion is another Civil Right.  People have the right to believe what they want about god, gods, angels, fairies, or whatever.  I don&#8217;t have to agree with them.  In fact, I don&#8217;t (I&#8217;m an atheist) but I agree that it&#8217;s *important* for people to have freedom of thought, and that there is a far, far greater danger in the &#8220;thought police,&#8221; than in religious freedom.</p>
<p>In both cases I exercise tolerance of individual freedoms &#8212; acceptance of an individual&#8217;s rights even though their speech/religion might be (and often is) offensive/stupid.</p>
<p>Things get a bit murkier when it comes to color.  I have a good friend who is black.  I don&#8217;t &#8220;tolerate&#8221; his skin color &#8212; in fact it&#8217;s not even an issue.  I certainly hope he doesn&#8217;t &#8220;tolerate&#8221; me for being white.  I don&#8217;t think anyone should say they &#8220;tolerate&#8221; his skin color either &#8212; it&#8217;s somehow wrong to say you tolerate someone on account of a physical condition they were born with, and have no control over.  </p>
<p>And that&#8217;s the difference.  </p>
<p>Some civil rights (religion and speech, for example) involve choices we make.  Those choices need to be tolerated, but not necessarily respected as the &#8220;right&#8221; choice.  Other civil rights have to do with conditions over which we have no choice (race, ethnicity, gender, etc.) and those demand acceptance, not mere &#8220;tolerance.&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s fairly clear (based on the science involved) that sexual orientation is one of those attributes that we&#8217;re born with.  Unlike our religious affiliation, and the words we speak, our sexual orientation isn&#8217;t a &#8220;choice.&#8221;  As such it seems pretty clear that sexual orientation, like race, is a civil right that demands more than simple &#8220;tolerance.&#8221;</p>
<p>I find it interesting that many of the most voracious opponents to Gay Civil Rights are religious people that claim &#8220;homosexuality is a choice.&#8221;  They seem to think that if it is a &#8220;choice&#8221; it can&#8217;t be a protected civil right, and they do this while defending their own civil rights in the choices they make to join a religion (Mormon, Roman Catholic, etc.) and to speak out on a subject.  Clearly their reasoning is hypocritical; choices can be protected as part of our civil rights.  They demand protection for their choices, and should be willing to extend protection for choices they *perceive* others making.  </p>
<p>But, as I said, one&#8217;s sexual orientation isn&#8217;t a choice.  </p>
<p>So, bringing this full circle, I agree that we shouldn&#8217;t &#8220;tolerate&#8221; a person for being black.  We shouldn&#8217;t tolerate the fact that so-and-so is Italian, French, or Chineese.  And we shouldn&#8217;t &#8220;tolerate&#8221; a person for being Gay anymore than we &#8220;tolerate&#8221; them for being 5&#8217;9&#8243;  </p>
<p>I tend to break it down this way:</p>
<p>1)  Choices we make &#8212; I tolerate them but may disagree, or even argue aggressively that the choice is silly, stupid, or dangerous.<br />
2)  How we are born &#8212; non-judgmental acceptance/understanding and respect</p>
<p>So I conclude that my dear Mormon friends are whacked out of their silly little heads &#8212; and have a Constitutional right to their delusions, while my friends of various colors, nationalities, and sexual orientations are just &#8230;. friends.</p>
<p>As for *children,* these any parent must love and cherish no matter what they do.  Any parent that would put their religion above their child (or grandchild, etc.) is exercising &#8220;unnatural affection.&#8221;  They are an affront to nature.  A parent that denigrates a child (or grandchild) for being gay is as strange a creature as a mother bear that tries to suckle a tree stump while her cub starves to death.</p>
<p>Anyway, that&#8217;s my $0.02 and I&#8217;m sticking to it (it&#8217;s my constitutional right!!) until someone can prove (using a cogent argument) that I don&#8217;t know what I&#8217;m talking about.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.gayequalitycivilrightsmovement.com/2009/11/07/where-does-tolerance-fit-with-equal-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-11</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Nov 2009 17:47:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gayequalitycivilrightsmovement.com/?p=121#comment-11</guid>
		<description>Thanks for a new thought, I never really thought about tolerance that way, you are so right.

Love you and miss you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for a new thought, I never really thought about tolerance that way, you are so right.</p>
<p>Love you and miss you!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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